Backstories
Bowser
Height: Varies
wildly, but using the size
reference chart he should be at least
10 feet tall (Mario is a little over 5 feet tall, and Bowser is typically twice
or over twice his size).
Age: Likely a little older
than 26. Mario is supposed to be 26 years old, and Bowser was a toddler when he
was an infant.
Bowser was born as one of the 7 Star Children,
babies said to possess extraordinary power and potential, as well as the
rightful king of the turtle-like Koopa race. He met his mortal enemy, Mario as
a toddler when his right-hand servant, Kamek, kidnapped Mario’s twin brother,
Luigi, and Yoshi went to rescue him. Unfortunately for Baby Bowser he didn’t
get the chance to ‘ride the green donkey’ as he put it, and was promptly
defeated by Yoshi despite being given a power-up from Kamek.
Just about everything past that has been a long
series of ploys to conquer and wreak havoc across the Mario universe. In
particular, Bowser likes trying to kidnap Princess Peach and take over the
Mushroom Kingdom, largely due to Peach’s evil dispelling magic (and because he
has a huge crush on the princess). Unfortunately for him, he tends to get his
plans completely foiled by the Mushroom Kingdom’s heroes, the Mario Bros.
Despite all this, his mortal enemies have no
problem when he decides to go go-karting with them, thanks to the Mario series’ well-established Pop
Eye-style narrative structure. And Bowser himself has
had several notable victories in the past, such as when he stole the Star Rod
in Paper Mario and actually defeated Mario before promptly losing again in the
game’s finale. He’s even teamed up with Mario in several adventures such as:
Super Mario RPG, Super Paper Mario, and Mario & Luigi: Bowser’s Inside
Story. Granted, in the latter of the 3 he teamed up with him unwittingly. From
a personality standpoint, Bowser is stubborn, hard-headed, and pretty
narcissistic, but has shown himself to be somewhat compassionate towards his
minions (somewhat).
Ganondorf
*Note: We know Ganondorf is typically used as
his human name, while Ganon is his ‘true final form’ beast name, but we’ll be
using them interchangeably.*
Height: 7’6
Age: Spans many generations,
likely several millennia on account of how often he gets revived or freed from
imprisonment. Physically he seems to be in his early 30s to late 40s.
Ganon’s story stems all the way back to Skyward
Sword before he was technically even born. Upon the Demon King, Demise’s defeat
by the hands of the Hero of Time, Link, he vowed his hatred would be
reincarnated throughout future generations, destined to seek out Link and
Zelda’s successors, domination of Hyrule, and rule over the world as a whole.
Ganondorf is that reincarnated hatred. Ganondorf himself was born as the King
to the thief-like tribe known as The Gerudo, and as the single male member born
from the tribe every 100 years.
Due to the nature of the land of Hyrule, which
was prosperous and green compared to the harsh wasteland that was the Gerudo
Desert, Ganondorf gained an insatiable jealousy that urged him to conquer the
neighboring kingdom, and claim its holy relic, The Triforce. During the events
of Ocarina of Time he did exactly that for the most part, gaining rule over
Hyrule, and access to the Triforce of Power. Past this point the Zelda timeline
does what the Zelda timeline does best, and becomes convoluted.
There are 3 different outcomes to Ganon’s
conquest in Ocarina of Time. In the ‘Child Timeline’ Link goes back to the past
and prevents Ganon from conquering Hyrule in the first place. In the ‘Adult
Timeline’ Link defeats Ganon in the future 7 years after he had conquered
Hyrule. And in the ‘Downfall Timeline’ Ganondorf actually manages to defeat Link,
but is sealed away during a future war with Hyrule’s remaining rebel forces.
Regardless, Ganondorf has been reincarnated,
freed from imprisonment, revived, and brought back to wreak havoc across Hyrule
for generations. While there’s almost always a young, green-clad hero to stop
him, given his connection with Demise, it’s very likely he’ll continue doing
this for the rest of Hyrule’s existence. Personality-wise, Ganondorf is ruthless, cruel, and constantly lusting for power, but does follow an honor
code as well.
Weapons
In case you were
wondering...
We’re not entirely sure what load-out both
characters will be given for this fight, but we’re assuming as long as it isn’t
a McGuffin that isn’t standard equipment (Example: The Star Rod, or the fully
completed Triforce) it’s fair game. Also it’s been confirmed that armies and
minions will NOT play a role in this fight.
Bowser
Hammers:
Straight from the original Super Mario Bros. Bowser has access to a seemingly
endless supply of throwing hammers, which he’ll chuck at opponents in an arc’d
pattern. They tend to vary in size with the smallest being around the size of
small tomahawks and the largest being almost as large as Mario.
Flaming Boomerangs: Exactly what’s written in the tint: Boomerangs that are eternally
set aflame that Bowser used in Mario Party 4.
Spiked Balls:
Large spiked metallic balls slightly larger than that of a human that Bowser
could throw as a projectile attack in Mario 3D Land, Mario Party 6, and when he
was possessed by King Boo in Luigi’s Mansion. The ones in Luigi’s Mansion can
explode as well. He can seemingly materialize them
out of nothing.
Drill Claws: A
set of gloves with drill-tipped fingers that Bowser wore in Super Mario RPG.
They boost the wearer’s physical strength by 20%.
Hurley Gloves: A pair of brown throwing gloves Bowser uses to amplify his throwing strength in Mario RPG. They increase Bowser's max physical attack stat in that game by 10%.
Spiked Link : A studded ball and chain weapon with retractable spikes used by Bowser in Mario RPG. The weapon is utilized by swinging it around Bowser’s body and throwing it at the opponent. It increases Bowser’s max physical attack stat in that game by 15%.
Magic Wand: A
wand with transmutation capabilities, the most notable of those capabilities
being to turn people into stone blocks or animals in the games and cartoons.
Magic Book: A
book Bowser used in the White Knuckle Scoring comic that’s capable of
activating teleportation and illusion spells for anybody who chants the right
words. Bowser’s understanding of the book is implied to be limited though.
Minimizer: A
special staff that shrinks opponents. The only way to undo the shrink spell is
to break the staff.
Soccer Bombs:
Exploding white soccer balls that Bowser can roll at enemies like bowling balls
in Super Mario 3D World (though logically he should also be able to throw them
at opponents too if he wants). They detonate based on a timer that activates
shortly after being thrown, and will change from a white coloring to a red
coloring when the timer is about to expire. Bombs that have begun blinking red
will explode instantly upon touching an enemy, but bombs that are white still
can still be picked up or kicked safely by opponents. Although said kick will
instantly make them blink red.
Bowser has two variants of these bombs. Ones
with long timers that stay white for several seconds after being throw, and
ones with short timers that turn red immediately after leaving his hands. 1
bomb alone can destroy walls of solid brick, and about 9 of them have enough
power to completely destroy Bowser’s over-sized pimpmobile.
Spiked Bat: A
baseball bat Bowser has used in several Mario Sports titles. While obviously a
valuable blunt-force weapon, it should theoretically be able to hit back
projectiles that aren’t baseballs too.
Barrels: Miscellaneous
barrels Bowser could also seemingly materialize out of nowhere to chuck at
foes.
Koopa Shells:
Green turtle shells Bowser threw at Mario in the finale to Yoshi’s Safari.
They’re fairly sturdy and capable of ricocheting off of solid surfaces.
Bowser Shell: An
item from the Mario Kart series themed after Bowser’s own shell. It starts
small, but quickly grows to be roughly 12 feet in diameter. It breaks apart
after bouncing into a solid object 15 times.
Killer Ball: A
bullet bill Bowser can seemingly materialize from a baseball in Mario Super
Star Sluggers
Clown Car: *Note:
Normally we exclude vehicles, but due to the small nature of Bowser’s clown
car, and the frequency in which he uses it, it could be argued as standard
equipment.*
A flying vehicle with a propeller on the bottom
that works as Bowser’s primary means of transportation. The device has a
notable resistance to fire and ice attacks, as well as a multitude of weapons.
Among the modifications Bowser has outfitted the device with are 2 cannons
attached to each side that could shoot either homing bullet bills or faster
moving explosive bullets as seen in Mario Golf Toadstool Tour and Mario Party
8.
Speaking of Mario Party 8, the mouth contained a
laser cannon that could shoot rapid bursts of laser energy at opponents.
When used by the Koopalings in New Super Mario Bros 2, it contained an auto
piloting system, and within the creepy eyes lies some sort of device that can
produce a flash of light capable of turning opponents to stone. Said flash
requires several seconds to charge, but covers a large amount of space. Additionally, within the mouth is a
large cannon that shoots explosive spiked balls around the size of steelies that
explode after 10 or so seconds. The one notable shortcoming to the device is
that it seems to have a limited
amount of fuel.
Given the number of Mecha Koopas, Bob Ombs, Big
Steelies (listed below), and general weapons Bowser can pull from the device, it
appears to have some sort of hammer-space too.
Mecha Koopas:
Mechanical devices Bowser will throw from his clown car that can breathe fire,
and will actively seek out their opponent. They explode upon contact.
Bob Ombs:
Explosives Bowser will throw from his clown car as well.
Big Steelies:
Giant steel balls about as big as the clown car that Bowser can somehow pull
out of said clown car by spinning the vehicle upside down. The big steelies
proceed to roll over anything in their path in the process.
Fusion Wand: Finally,
in the Nintendo Power Super Mario comics the clown car had a built in magical
fusion of a wand and microphone similar to the wands used by Bowser in the
American cartoon. It could be used for singing (badly) or to shoot bolts of
lightning that turn people into stone on contact. The effects of this
petrification are not permanent, but are difficult to undo without a specific
counter. It took a week for a “massage” specialist to nullify it when Bowser
cast the spell on Mario in the comics.
Power-Ups
Bowser smartened up a bit in Super Mario 3D
World and decided to start using Mario’s own power-ups against him.
Super Bell: A
bell-shaped power-up that transforms Bowser's into the great (and adorable)
Meowser. While in this form Bower gains increased agility and can climb up
vertical surfaces using newly gained claws on the end of his hands and feet. He
can also swipe at his opponents with his claws or tail, with enough power to
break through solid stone.
Double Cherry: A
cherry-shaped power-up that creates a clone of Bower. This clone has the same
physical properties, fighting skills and power-ups that the original had upon
its use. Bowser can create up to 5 clones of himself with this power up. And
unlike the clones created by Mario and other such characters, each is capable
of moving and attacking independently from one another. Any clone hit with a
significantly powerful attack however will dissipate.
Ganondorf
Dark Trident: A
large trident Ganon gains when he takes on his beast form. Said trident can
fire magical energy attacks (up to 5 at once), be thrown to home in on
opponents, or move in a boomerang arc, and leaves a trail of blue flame when
thrown. It is stated in Four Swords Adventure to house an evil
spirit, but according the trident’s wiki page, that was a mistranslation. Regardless, the one he stole in 4
Swords Adventure clearly possesses potent dark magic. It’s even capable of
warping opponents to the ‘Dark World’, a corrupted version of the Sacred Realm.
It should also be noted that Ganondorf has
occasionally used less powerful tridents in some games, which he tends to use
in his Ganon form. For example In the Oracle games he could summon 4 balls of
magic energy, which could explode in a scatter mine like fashion to fling a
multitude of smaller dark energy balls across the battlefield. he was also
recently given a trident as a weapon in Hyrule Warriors Legends, which had various
electrical properties to it. His Ganon form in that game also seems to be
capable of conjuring one out of thin air.
Sword of Sages: A sword originally owned by the Sage of Water that was intended
to execute Ganon. Instead, Ganon was merely temporarily sealed and he took the
sword as his own when he was freed. As a holy weapon previously used by one of
the sages, it presumably has evil-slaying properties. It may not have killed
Ganondorf, but it did leave a nasty scar.
Dual Swords (made up name): A set of giant gold-colored swords used in Ganon’s final form in
Ocarina of Time. Beyond extending his reach, and letting him use swords in his
beast form, he typically prefers his trident.
Dual Katanas (made up name): A set of curved, eastern-themed swords Ganon used in the final
duel with Link in Wind Waker. While no magical properties seem to be attached
to the swords, they are much swifter and lighter than any of Ganon’s other
swords.
Swords of Demise: The most powerful set of massive dual broadswords available to
Ganon in Hyrule Warriors. They possess a dark elemental attribute, can summon
sword beam-like projectiles, which can be fired whenever he wishes, and Ganon
is capable of channelling dark magic into the blades. Best of all, thanks to
the dark attribute the more consecutive hits Ganondorf gets in, the more
powerful his attacks become.
Gauntlets: In
Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf’s beast form possessed a set of gauntlets. One could
create and shoot fireballs, while the other could manifest an energy spear that
explodes upon contact. It is possible to destroy both gauntlets.
Hyrule Warriors Sub-Weapons: It’s questionable if these would be allowed, but in Hyrule
Warriors Ganondorf could technically use a variety of weapons that only Link
normally has access to including: The Hookshot, Bow, Bombs, and Boomerang.
Armor
Bowser
Bowser’s best defense would be the large Turtle
Shell he wears on his back that he can tuck into to protect himself from
physical strikes, fire, and ice-based attacks. It’s tough enough to negate the
striking force of falling oversized Thwomps of equal or greater height to
Bowser’s own (the Sniffle Thwomp being one example). While tucked into his shell Bowser can also
move/spin horizontally along the ground to bash into opponents.
He can also jump while moving horizontally in
his shell if he desires. The shell has large sharp spikes covering it’s
surface, which can impale opponents that try striking his shell or jumping on
his shell when he is tucked into it. Bowser can also remove his shell from his
body and replace it with a stronger more durable shell if he desires. Such as…
Heal Shell: An
alternate more durable turtle shell that Bowser can wear as a replacement shell
for his standard shell in Super Mario RPG. It has the same standard properties
as Bowser’s normal shell, but increases his resistance to physical and magic
attacks by 15% and 13% respectively. This increase being presumably based on
the ratio of Bowser's max stats in Mario RPG without armor compared to his max
stats with the heal shell armor equipped.
Safety Ring: A
protective charm Bowser could use in Super Mario RPG that gives him a variety
of defensive and supportive upgrades. It prevents status effects like poison,
silence, sleep, and fear (which cuts offense/defense) from taking a hold of him. It
also gives him limited immunity to forced transmutation, specifically the
forced physical transformations of being turned into a mushroom or scarecrow by some
enemies in Super Mario RPG.
On top of that, it prevents death from “instant
death” attacks, attacks that normally ignore a
character's defense, and kill them regardless of their current state. For
example the Harry Potter series’ Killing Curse could probably be blocked by it.
Additionally it also completely nullifies damage from most minor, moderate, and
highly damaging elemental attacks, including fire based attacks, electricity
based attacks, and ice based attacks.
Megamorph Belt: A transformative belt that gives Bowser his Blockhead form (see
below).
Ganondorf
Ganondorf’s appearance changes from game to
game, but generally he wears armor of some sort. It’s shown in Ocarina of Time
that his Cape is capable of deflecting back his own projectiles, and
blocking Link’s arrows. With Hyrule Warriors brought into the mix, he also has
access to Badges, which can do various things, including: Boost his
resistance to various elemental attacks, boost his own stats, his effectiveness
with various sub-weapons, ETC.
But his most notable piece of armor (if you can
call it that) would be the Triforce of Power that he bears. It’s one of
the 3 pieces of the completed Triforce, a sacred relic created by the 3
goddesses who created the Zelda universe. On its own, the Triforce of Power
gives an immense boost to Ganondorf’s physical strength, magical capability,
makes him ageless, and gives him some degree of superhuman durability and
invulnerability.
Skills & Abilities
Bowser
As the leader of the Koopas, Bowser possesses
superhuman strength, speed, durability, pyrokinesis, geokinesis, dark magic
manipulation, minor electrokinesis, and a variety of other magical powers. For
the sake of organization we’re going to divide all of this up into distinct
categories.
Pyrokinetic Attacks
Firebreath: The
most common attack method of Bowser’s. Typically he fires this as either
smaller fireballs or as a continuous stream of fire. At its max, the breathe
can reach several-dozen meters, and easily burn through solid break. The
fireballs he spits can have explosive properties, be as large as Bowser
himself, scatter into smaller fireballs, erupt into giant pillars of flame upon
contacting the ground, phase through physical matter it would otherwise explode upon contact with, and should have a range of at least several hundred meters given the
fact that these fireballs reach outside his own castle.
Meteorite Breath: Bowser could also breathe large meteorites from his mouth in the
Galaxy games.
Breath Swing: A
move where Bowser sets a tennis ball on fire, then sends it back towards his
opponents with his racket as a fiery projectiles. Logically he should be able
to do the same with any flammable projectile with his bat as a substitute for
the racket.
Bomber Dunk: In
Mario Hoops 3 on 3 and Mario Sports Mix, Bowser could turn a sports ball into a
red sphere of fire energy around it with the Bomber Dunk. The resulting
projectile would then travel faster when thrown and could damage/stun enemies
it made contact with.
Geokinetic Attacks
Boulder Attack (made up name): A Geokinetic move at Bowser’s disposal that covers the top of his
body in rock turning him into a human-er-turtle boulder, allowing him to crash
through foes. Though the unprotected portion of him is still naturally
vulnerable to attacks.
Spike Ball Shell Attack: Bowser can somehow create another shell to place across the under
and over side of his body turning him into a rolling spiked ball of death. It’s
basically a better version of his Boulder Attack. While in this form he gains
the defensive strength of his shell on all sides and can easily bash into
opponents for physical strikes. He can also climb up walls with this move, as
long as the wall in question is not too hard for his spikes to protrude it.
Crusher: An
attack where Bowser will summon a spire of rock from under an opponent and
impales them.
Smash Bros. Moves &
Fighting Techniques
Whirling Fortress: a rapid spinning attack where Bowser will withdraw into his shell
and quickly spin around to either gain altitude, quickly cover short distances
of space, change directions quickly, reflect minor projectiles or attack
opponents. The move moves much faster than Bowser’s normal ground or air
movements in his shell, but only lasts a few seconds. The inertia from the
spinning can also be used to increase the strength of melee weapon strikes.
Bowser Bomb: an
attack where Bowser jumps into the air and performs a downward butt-slam on
anything underneath him. The attack has enough strength to break through solid
brick in Super Mario Bros 3.
Koopa Claw: An
attack were Bowser will grab opponents and gnaw and slash at them with his
fangs and claws. In the Paper Mario series Bowser was also able to infuse his
claws and fangs with a toxic aura, allowing him to poisons opponents upon
contact with said claw and fang attacks. When poisoned these opponents will
periodically take damage for a short periods of time.
Winding Punch (made up name): a more powerful winded up, forward moving punch that has enough
inertia to stay airborne for a few seconds. The move can shatter stones larger
than Bowser himself.
Shoulder Ram (made up name): A forward dashing attack ripped off from the Wario Land series with
enough speed and power to crash through brick and solid stone statues.
Miscellaneous Powers
& Abilities
*Note: Several of Bowser’s attacks in Super
Mario RPG involve summoning questionably sentient creatures. However, since he
summons them with his own power and seems to have direct control over them
we’re assuming they will be allowed, the same way Bayonetta’s summons would
be.*
Poison Gas: Creates
a big cloud monster-thing called a Mokura that emits green gas in the immediate
area and poisons foes.
Shape-shifting: In the anime movie, Super Mario Bros: Pīchi-hime Kyushutsu Dai
Sakusen! Bowser had the ability to shapeshift into various inanimate objects
and living things. Some notable examples including a teddy bear, a ballerina,
and a scarecrow. He never really applied the ability in battle however, so it
may not be very useful in a fight, and whether there are any strict limitations
to his transformative powers is unknown. However, the fact that he has some
control over the form he takes could prove useful.
Teleportation:
Through a variety of means Bowser has shown himself to be capable of
teleporting short and long distances. In the Galaxy games this is presumably
done with dark magic.
Levitation: He
could also somehow levitate and move in mid-air in the Galaxy games.
Bowser Crush:
Bowser will summon a giant green mecha-koopa toy that stomps on nearby
opponents before disappearing shortly after.
Terrorize:
Bowser will momentarily summon a giant Boo that instills the fear status
ailment in his opponents, which cuts their attack and defense in half.
Spinning Attack (made up name): A move where Bowser will outstretch his arms, infuse them with
some sort of dark energy and spin around while standing for a physical strike.
Inhale: After eating the
‘Vacuum Mushroom’, Bowser gained the ability to violently inhale things into
his mouth, Kirby-style. The move is a great way to pull opponents to his
position or to disarm them of objects they may be holding. Objects or opponents
that approach Bowser’s mouth when he is inhaling usually
shrink...Somehow, allowing Bowser to devour a wide
variety structures both small and large. It is important to note however that
opponents devoured by Bowser are not killed instantly, and can often force
Bowser to regurgitate them, and return them to normal size, after persisting or
causing enough trouble in his stomach. The inhale ability can draw objects
larger than Bowser himself to his position and covers around the same size and
distance as his flame-thrower-like fire breath. His X variant boss in Dream
Team also used it to inhale the items the Mario Bros used for Bros Attacks,
essentially disarming them.
It should also be noted that while the Vacuum
Mushroom was destroyed in BIS, Bowser never seemed to lose the ability to
inhale, as he continued to use the ability in Dream Team and paper Jam.
Shockwaves: In Mario 64, 3D Land, and Super Mario Galaxy, Bowser could
make ring-shaped shockwaves of energy to attack opponents by jumping up and
down in the air with short hops. These shockwaves generally come in pairs of
two per-jump in 64 or one in 3D Land/Galaxy. Regardless of the amount
generated, each extend from Bowser's body for a length of a few dozen feet in
all directions.
Ganondorf
Ganondorf possesses superhuman strength, speed,
durability, minor electrokinesis, pyrokinesis, a degree of invulnerability,
some degree of soul manipulation/possession, has a spirit summon, can use light
magic, and is a master of dark magic. Because of his many skills &
abilities we’ll also be dividing this up into distinct categories.
Dark Magic
Gerudo Dragon:
Ganon lunges forward grabbing his foe, and either smashes them to the ground in
an eruption of dark energy if they’re airborne, or produces an explosion of
dark energy directly to their faces if they're grounded.
Focus Spirit: A
temporary stat-boost Ganondorf can gain, that envelopes him in an aura of darkness,
boosting his strength, speed, and durability. He can also perform several
different normal attacks while in this form.
Dark Wave (made up name): A large wave of dark energy Ganondorf can produce, which
immobilizes his foes. Strong opponents like Link are capable of breaking free
of it though.
Wizard’s Foot:
After harnessing dark magic into his feet, Ganondorf dives downward or forward,
damaging any opponent he comes in contact with. Wizard’s Dropkick is a weaker
variant with a more narrow angle, while Wizard’s Assault strikes faster and
almost completely downward.
Dark Energy Ball (made up name): Exactly what the name implies. Ganondorf produces a ball of dark
energy, that he can then explode by striking it.
Ganon Shade:
Ganondorf summons his S̶t̶a̶n̶d̶-P̶e̶r̶s̶o̶n̶a̶ a projection of his beast-form
that can slash, swipe, and generally massacre any enemy in his way. He can also
manifest separate parts of this projection onto parts of his body (Example:
Manifesting the arm onto his own arm).
Warlock Punch:
Ganondorf’s own take on the Falcon Punch. It provides Ganon some degree of
superarmor, and while incredibly slow if it connects his foe is sure to feel
it. He has access to a quicker, but weaker version of this move, and one where
he uses the Sword of Sages.
Dark Impact:
After charging a large amount of dark magic into his arms, Ganondorf jumps into
the air, and smashes the ground producing a large shockwave, and crater in the
process. The size of the crater and shockwave is dependent on how much meter he
has gained, which is dependent on how many enemies his has successfully hit and
defeated.
Electrokinetic Attacks
Dark Dive:
Ganondorf leaps upward towards his opponent, electrocuting them on contact. He
has a double-uppercut variant of this move that has a dark attribute to it, and
a further reaching, but weaker version.
Dark Skyward Strike: Ganondorf raises a sword into the air bringing down lightning
that damages nearby opponents. He then produces 3 streams of electricity that
travel in a straight line in front of him.
Miscellaneous Powers
& Abilities
Teleportation: Ganondorf is capable of teleporting short distances, and
dissipating his body.
Levitation/Flight: Ganondorf can levitate and fly in the air.
Resurrection:
Ganon has the ability to resurrect some creatures, such as the dragon,
Volvagia.
Telekinesis:
Ganondorf possesses minor telekinesis, enough to throw Midna across a room.
Light Energy Manipulation: Ganondorf can create and fire a large ball of light energy. While
it can be reflected back, it’s fairly damaging against those it hits, and stuns
them for a brief period of time. He can also fire smaller light energy blasts
in larger quantities.
Possession: In
Twilight Princess Ganondorf was able to possess Zelda, and use several of his
abilities while fighting in her body. However, Zelda was completely unconscious
when he possessed her (not to mention her spirit wasn’t inhabiting her body at
the time), and he’s never used this on a conscious foe despite its usefulness,
suggesting his ability to possess people is limited.
Twilight Realm Portal Creation: Ganondorf can create portals to and from the Twilight realm,
which also let him move from one point to another quite quickly.
Death Curse (made up name): While he’s never used it in combat, Ganondorf was able to give a
‘curse’ to the Great Deku Tree that would make it slowly die. This was done by
implanting the creature Gohma into it. Link lifted it, but the Deku Tree died regardless.
Fire Ring (made up name): Ganon can create a large ring of fire that encircles both him and
his foe into a smaller space. Significantly damaging him will remove the ring
though.
Phantom Riders (made up name): In Twilight Princess Ganon could also summon ghostly horse riders
to assist him in combat. Once again, they’re summoned with his own power, and
obey his every command, so they don’t contradict any rules of DEATH BATTLE.
Crystal Imprisonment (made up name): Ganondorf is capable of creating and imprisoning foes in crystal.
Though he’s only done this when
kidnapping Zelda, so how durable the
container is is unknown.
Magically Infused Weapons: Ganondorf is capable of infusing his weapons with magical energy,
which will harm
a foe if they, or something they’re holding (such as a
sword) comes in contact with it.
Forcefield/Barrier Creation: Ganondorf has been known to make barriers around his castle in
some games, though combat-wise he’s only used them in Twilight Princess to
produce borders for his and Link’s battlefield, and they’re typically destroyed
by the Master Sword.
Transformations
Bowser
Giga Bowser
A transformation that Bowser could use in the
Smash Bros. series after absorbing the power of a Smash Ball. While in this
form Bowser’s size increases to roughly 2x his normal, bullshit Smash size, and
his claws, horns, and spikes are considerably longer in length in this form.
Bowser’s physical strength also increases and he gains the ability to infuse
many of his melee attacks with lightning, darkness, and ice attributes. The
latter is capable of flash freezing opponents in blocks of ice leaving them
temporarily vulnerable. Many of his attacks in the form hit so hard they cause
explosion-like bursts of energy upon contact, and hit with enough force to
embed opponents in solid ground. To top it off Bowser is incapable of being
knocked around in this form, and does not flinch from any form of attack. He
isn’t invincible however, as he does still incur damage from his opponents’
attacks in this form. The transformation also only lasts for about 12 seconds.
Giant Bowser
Over the course of the Mario Bros. series Bowser
has displayed an utterly bizarre ability to spontaneously change size, anywhere
from between twice as tall as his normal height to as large as Peach's castle
(about 4-5 stories tall). Most of his size alterations stem from his body’s
natural response to influxes of adrenaline (confirmed by Mario & Luigi:
Bowser’s Inside Story), with him typically becoming a giant automatically as a
defense mechanism to being put in life or
death situations.
In some instances, this is done via magic or
outside help, but those obviously won’t be allowed. After becoming a giant
Bowser retains his prior abilities and gains an immense increase in physical
strength and defense, most likely proportional to that of the size increase. As
a giant he also tends to gain new special powers he does not have access to at
his default/smaller sizes. This includes…
Bringing down meteors from the sky that produce
shockwaves upon hitting the ground, summoning 8 human sized hammers in the sky
to fall crashing towards his opponents, spitting out larger beefed up
fireballs, creating giant balls of dark energy about the size of his hands that
he could lob at his opponents as projectile attacks and have electrical
shockwave-producing properties, and creating pseudo-black holes capable of
sucking in opponents.
Additionally in Dream Team, Dreamy Bowser could
actually stack his biologically activated gigantism and an enlarging spell from
his followers to become an even Gianter (we’re certain that’s a word) Giant
Bowser! Whether he can stack his biological growing with his other artificial
enlarging methods is unknown.
Dry Bowser
A form taken if Bowser is defeated and loses all
his skin. This form has all the same abilities as his default form, except all
his flames are blue, and he can throw the bones from his body as a projectile
attack. He also gains a slight defensive upgrade, as he can draw his bones back
to himself to rebuild himself after getting hit by major physical attacks and
has complete immunity to fire (if his normal form didn’t give him that
already). He’s not exactly “invincible” in this form however and can be knocked
out with enough physical force, get reduced to dust by a strong enough attack,
and logically could be “ringed out” if the bones that constitute his body were
blown apart a large enough distance. Bowser can still become a giant as Dry
Bowser too, though through artificial means. His ability to do so through his
natural biological means is unknown, since he should lack the internal organs
that would distribute adrenaline for the size growth.
Dry bowser can seemingly control individual
bones of his body, like for example his head Bowser also retains the ability to inhale in this form, and can
even heal by chewing on his enemies . Dry Bowser also has the ability to drain HP from enemies as a
boss in the game puzzles and dragons.
Blockhead Bowser
Bowser took on this form after equipping a
transformative belt called The Megamorph Belt. During it Bowser transforms into
a series of interconnected squared blocks capable of arranging themselves into
different configurations. These include: A giant top, a giant square box and a
long snake like creature. The top can spin around an immediate area to ram into
opponents, the square form can roll across an area to crush opponents, and the
snake form can slither across the immediate area with greater dexterity than
the other forms. All forms contain a special golden Bowser block that can
breath fire at an opponent. Attacking this golden Bowser block is the only way
to damage Bowser when he is in this form. The square and snake forms also have
5 and 3 blocks with a Bowser insignia respectively, that are also capable of
breathing fire.
Ganondorf
Ganon
A monstrous, humanoid boar creature that is
Ganon’s true form. Alongside a stat-boost, the new ability lets him become
invisible, teleport, breathe fire, shoot fireballs, create flaming bats from
said fireballs, fire a scattershot of energy blasts from his trident, create
portals to various dimensions, fire projectiles from the tusks on his
shoulders, and charge a sphere of dark energy and release it.
He can use a special attack called the Secret Technique
of Darkness in A Link to the Past, where he will suck the light out of an enclosed
space to limit enemy sight. Creating more sources of light artificially can
counter this ability however. He's done this in the Atura Link to the Past manga as well.
Feats
Bowser
Strength &
Destructive Power
*Note: Several of these feats come from
instances where Mario & Luigi boost Bowser’s adrenaline from inside his
body. However, there’s no reason to believe Bowser couldn’t naturally access
this strength the same way he can access Giant Bowser, considering his body
naturally produces said adrenaline. And some are impressive before he gets the
adrenaline boost. Not to mention there were plenty of foreign objects in
Bowser’s body inhibiting him during the events of Bowser's Inside Story.*
-In the original Super Mario Bros. Bowser’s
magic was potent enough to transmute virtually all of the citizens of the
Mushroom Kingdom into brick.
-As Giant Bowser has lifted Peach’s
castle, and lifted and physically
overpowered a mechanized version of his own castle.
-Chucked a
massive cannonball ball several times bigger
than he is into his own fortress. Lowballing Bowser’s height should put the
cannonball in question at a little over 13,000 short tons, bare minimum. Some
calcs put it at over 40,000 tons.
Speed & Agility
-Should be able to leap at least several stories
(see Super Mario 64).
-Can run in short bursts of speed in Super Mario
64.
-Bowser shows the ability to use
his levitation to move at fairly fast speeds in the finale to Galaxy 2.
Durability &
Endurance
-Survived an
explosion at the end of Paper Mario that
sent him flying into the sky, and presumably back into the planet’s atmosphere
(Using this feat may be compositing a different version of Bowser, though
Bowser in the mainstream games has feats comparable to this anyway).
-Is highly resistant to heat and disintegration.
Can casually bathe in acid, survive falling into lava (Super Mario 64 and New Super Mario
Bros. Wii), and falling into a miniature
sun. Granted, this is somewhat inconsistent as in
some games he straight-up dies if he falls into lava, but these are more the
exceptions than the rules, and these inconsistencies probably be explained away
via his adrenaline boost.
-It’s debatable whether this would qualify as a
legit black hole or a ‘pseudo-black hole’, but Bowser fell into
a black hole of some sort.
-Another… Complicated feat, but at the very
least Bowser survives a massive explosion, which produces a black hole that was consuming the universe.
(The universe thing is highly contested as it was most likely Rosalina and the
Lumas who protected them from universal fuckery, but he still survived the
miniature star exploding on his own.)
Ganondorf
Strength &
Destructive Power
-Should be stronger than Link, who can lift
massive boulders boulders that weigh over 1000 tons with the right equipment,
and even without said equipment can break free of the giant sea monster Tentalus’ tentacles, and overpower large armored Gorons.
-Turned Hyrule Castle from this to this. Granted, a timeframe isn’t given, but given the rate at which he
did the same thing in Hyrule Warriors, it’s likely a pretty brief timeframe.
-Destroyed
a large bulk of the Black Tower in his mindless rage
while in Ganon form in Oracles of Ages Manga.
-Blasted
through large stone walls and created explosions the size of small buildings in the Atura Link to the Past Manga.
-Easily made a small crater with a single
trident swip in his ganon form in the Atura Link to the Past Manga.
Speed & Agility
-Can dodge light arrows.
-Can keep up with Link even when he possesses
the Pegasus Boots and Roc’s Feather.
-Can jump at least several stories.
Durability &
Endurance
-Survived being at the center of the
upper portion of the Forsaken Fortress as
the Dragon God, Valoo, burned it down.
-Survived a deep
sword swing from the Master Sword
in the Link to the Past Comics. Granted, this paralyzed him allowing Link to
finish him off with a Silver Arrow.
-Managed to no-sell a
Spin Attack from Link in the Atura
Link to Past Manga, as well
as a few other direct hits.
-Ganondorf generally shows a strong resistance
to non-holy, silver, and evil-slaying weapons found in the Zelda series.
Notable Fights
Bowser
-Defeated Dark Bowser. To put that into context,
this is the creature that created a hurricane large enough to engulf the
entire Mushroom Kingdom.
-Defeated Smithy with the help of Mario, Mallow,
Peach, and Geno.
-Actually managed to defeat Mario in
the original Paper Mario thanks to the Star Rod. Has lost to Mario and his brother in just about every other
situation outside of that.
-Has gotten his ass kicked by other characters
more times than can feasibly be remembered.
Ganondorf
-Defeated Lana in Hyrule Warriors.
-Casually defeated Young Link early on in
Ocarina of Time, as well as several lesser equipped incarnations of Link prior
to their final battles.
-Technically defeated Adult Link in one of the
possible timelines in Ocarina of Time.
-Has lost to a fully equipped Link and/or Zelda
for the last couple of millennia outside of that.
Training &
Experience
Bowser
-Bowser has been the pawn to some villains in
some stories (usually due to possession and amnesia), but showed some nifty deception
skills when working with Antasma. Realizing that the antagonist to Dream Team
would see his brutish and angry personality as non-threatening and ignorant, he
played a dumb sidekick role to him for most of the game, only betraying him
when Antasma was weakened, and had nothing more to gain from working with him.
-He actually managed to set a decent trap for
the Mario Bros in the Nintendo Power comics, by luring them into a ghost house when they were tired and seeking easy shelter, had the genre
savviness to attempt to use Mario’s own power ups against him during his boss
fight in 3D World, and was the one who grew concerned that machine Eggman had
made was dangerous and could backfire in Mario and Sonic London 2012 Olympic
Games (rather than the other way around).
-Most baffling is Bowser somehow orchestrated placing a castle underneath Peach’s castle with nobody noticing, so he could lift it into the sky along with
her when she was the most unexpected. This was probably via the Star Rod that
he stole in the beginning of the game, which also let him create many castles
and strongholds throughout the Mushroom kingdom to keep the imprisoned Star
Spirits safe guarded. Why he didn’t use said rod to just smite Mario when he
learned that he was still alive is beyond us (we’d guess plot shielding).
-And as the King of the Koopas Bowser commands
an entire army filled with infantry, engineers, wizards, airships, spaceships,
tanks, all sorts of mechs and various sci-fi monsters/machines. Said army is
also fairly competent when they want to conquer something and Mario isn’t in
the way. His forces were able to take over the Mushroom Kingdom in games like
New Super Mario Bros U, The Lost Levels, Paper Mario (to an extent), Mario 64,
as well as countries in Super Mario Bros 3, and nearly the entire galaxy in
Super Mario Galaxy 1 & 2. Even if you assume most of Bowser’s plans and decisions
are created or mediated by smarter members of his troop, the fact that he’s the
leader must count for something, especially when you consider the combination
attacks he has formed that he uses when fighting alongside his troops.
-Bowser was instructed how to use his inhale
ability by the character Broque Monsieur, but besides that he seems to have
learned on his own when it comes to the rest of his abilities. Whatever the
case he’s knowledgeable in various kinds of magic, physical attacks, and weapons.
-He has fought Mario, one of the most well-known
video game characters in history close to a hundreds times at this point in the
series, in all sorts of different settings like space, his own castles, sports
games, fighting tournaments, and all sorts of other weird situations.
-He’s regularly fought against other world
domination aspiring villains and their henchmen in the series, sometimes even
by the side of Mario himself. Some notable examples include: Smithy, some
X-Nauts in Paper Mario The Thousand Year Door, the Shroobs, Fawful in Bowser’s
Inside Story, and Count Bleck in Super Paper Mario.
-Whenever he steals or gains control of some all
powerful magic macguffin (The Star Rod, Royal Sticker, ETC) he normally wields
it with relative ease.
-The best thing that can be said about Bowser’s
experience and training is he has been causing trouble and fighting the Mario
Bros and co since he was a toddler. He’s fought previous DEATH BATTLE victor
Yoshi 4 times at both normal size and a giant in Yoshi’s Island, Yoshi’s Story,
Yoshi’s Island DS, and Yoshi’s New Island. He also made his first attempt at
kidnapping Peach as a toddler in Mario and Luigi Partners in Time and was
fairly active during the rest of that game, fighting alongside his future self
on one occasion and actively seeking out the Cobalt Star (the magic macguffin
of that game) along with the Mario Bros and the games main villains, the
Shroobs.
-Finally he’s also teamed up with Yoshi briefly
in Yoshi’s Island DS, to take on his future self’s army and showed himself to
be quite capable at taking them out (with Yoshi’s help of course).
Ganondorf
-Ganondorf’s tribe the Gerudo is shown to be
well versed in archery, swordplay and thievery in the Ocarina. Because of this
it can likely be presumed that Ganondorf was probably formally trained and
skilled in these abilities as well since he was the tribe’s leader.
-Ganondorf is often the longest lived Zelda
character. Almost all his incarnations across the 3 main Zelda timeline are
future versions of his original self in the Ocarina, with each having lived
hundreds or thousands of years on their own.
-Ganondorf tends to be among the more
intelligent Nintendo villains, and often manipulates Link & Zelda or others
to do his bidding before making a move himself. Some examples include tricking
Link into opening the pathway to the triforce in Ocarina, manipulating Zant
into attacking Hyrule in Twilight Princess, forcibly reuniting his piece of the
Triforce with Links & Zelda’s in Wind Waker and manipulating Cia into
attacking Hyrule so he could take over when they were weakened in Hyrule
Warriors.
-Technically speaking Ganondorf has successfully
taken over Hyrule and defeated Link/Zelda through sheer physical force on a few
occasions. In the Downfall Timeline he actually won his fight against Link in
Ocarina of Time, which led to the imprisoning war described in A Link to the
Past. He also took over Hyrule unopposed in the Adult Timeline and was only
stopped when the gods of Hyrule themselves intervened and sealed the entire
country beneath an ocean. He also takes over Hyrule castle in Hyrule Warriors
by more or less rushing in with his army and beating the crap out of all that nation’s
greatest heroes (Link, Zelda, Impa, Lana) personally.
-Given that he’s the reincarnation of an ancient
world destroying demon he naturally has an affinity for dark magic and sorcery.
Weaknesses
Bowser
While Bowser has shown himself to be somewhat
competent and crafty on a few occasions, he is not a strategist by any stretch
of the imagination. He has a huge ego, will accept food from strangers (like he
did with the ‘Vacuum Mushroom’), and some media flat-out describes Bowser as
someone who prefers, ”Brute force and a bad attitude to smarts and an
education”. On top of that, he’s kind of the Doctor Doom of the Mario Bros.
series in the sense that he gets his ass kicked constantly despite having WAY
more resources, powers, and abilities than his arch nemeses.
Although it doesn’t happen often, games like
Mario Galaxy also show that knocking him on his back can incapacitate or take
him off guard for a second or two, much like a real world turtle. Finally if he
designs or commissions the fighting arena he’s in, he’ll probably add some
stupid structure or function that gives his opponent an advantage. Thankfully,
provided he’s on neutral terrain when fighting in a DEATH BATTLE, his
incredibly poor taste in arenas probably won’t factor into this fight.
Ganondorf
Despite many fans claiming otherwise, Ganondorf
is not invulnerable to anything that isn’t holy, designed to slay evil, powered
by light magic, or containing silver. These are typically the means by which
he’s defeated, but there’s no reason to believe enough raw force couldn’t do
him in as well. While his durability is certainly impressive, the Biggoron’s
Sword and Megaton Hammer are capable of harming him, and neither possess any
notable evil-slaying properties. Unless we’re also to believe Ganondorf could
tank the full force of a punch from Superman, then assuming he’s invulnerable
to any and every non-holy, light-based, or silver-based attack is a giant no
limits fallacy.
And even though his forms are very powerful, several
more specific weaknesses to them exist as well. The tail to beast Ganon for
example, is vulnerable to powerful blows, and will stun him if hit with one.
Several of the gems placed on certain incarnations of Ganon are weak points as
well. Though admittedly, these 2 weaknesses and similar weaknesses are both
incarnation specific, and arguably simply fabrications of gameplay.
Conclusion
Bowser
Advantages
-Bowser is stronger & more
destructive by a fairly large margin. The cannonball lifting feat is over
13,000 short tons when low-balled, and up to over 40,000 short tons when not.
This isn’t getting into the boost he’d naturally get from his Giant form, taking down a creature that created a country-sized hurricane, or his
more destructive feats.
-More durable, no matter how much you do or do not buy into
the black hole feats.
-Bowser’s shapeshifting capabilities and Safety
Ring circumvents a lot of Ganondorf’s magical hax.
-In general Bowser has a much larger assortment
of weapons and abilities at his disposal.
-Could possibly disarm Ganondorf of several
weapons with his inhale ability.
-Whirling fortress-ish moves can reflect
projectiles in some sports games, and Bowser has shown the ability to hit back
energy blasts with his bare fists.
-The Double Cherry power-up would likely give
Bowser a numbers advantage, given he can produce 5 copies of himself, that can
all act independently with any previous buffs given to Bowser intact.
-Even if we factor out stuff like Mario Party,
Bowser has a lot more experience and feats than Ganondorf on account of
appearing in more games.
-Ganon's technique of darkness will be
ineffective, given Bowser can produce his own flame.
-Magic wands used by the Koopa Clan in the Mario
Bros series, and many of Bowser's own wands, have transmutation abilities. Bowser has used similar wands to turn people into stone or
objects into piles of stone blocks in the Adventures comic and the American
cartoon. This is hax and should be able to get around conventional durability.
Disadvantages
-Bowser has a bad case of Doctor Doom Syndrome,
in the sense that he almost always loses no matter how powerful he gets or what
special plot maguffin power-up he obtains. He's easily tricked and most of his
losses are due to his overconfidence and lack of foresight when designing a battle
arena. (Though the latter likely may not be applicable depending on where DB
decides the battle to take place)
-Is arguably vulnerable to the Sword of Sages.
Ganondorf
Advantages
-The Sword of Sages is a holy blade designed to execute Ganondorf. It likely has some evil slaying properties given
it got past Ganondorf’s own durability so easily, and thus could be effective
against Bowser.
-Ganondorf is smarter and more strategic than
Bowser is in a conventional sense.
-Ganondorf could temporarily deal with Bowser’s
clones by using the Dark Trident to send them to an alternate realm. Though
breaking out of the world wouldn’t be much trouble.
-He could also attempt to erect barriers to
control their movement (although teleportation would probably make that
useless).
-Ganon can become invisible which could cause
confusion for Bowser.
Disadvantages
-Bowser outclasses Ganondorf in strength and destructive power by a big margin.
-Ganondorf is actually pretty by-the-books
during a duel. He's typically not that underhanded.
-As far as we know being changed into a pile of
blocks isn't something Ganondorf has experience with, even if he has some
limited transformation abilities himself.
-Regardless of how much Ganondorf can tank, he
doesn't have anything even near the amount of destructive force needed to put down
Bowser in even his base form. Let alone a Giant, Giant Giant or Dry Bowser
form.
Verdicts
LousyTactician
People
will be tired of reading statements like this once all the verdicts
have been read. But to begin a very thorough dead horse beating: No, Ganondorf
is not completely invulnerable to anything that isn't evil-slaying, light-based, or silver.
If Galactus picked up Ganondorf and crushed him between his forefinger and
thumb do you think Ganondorf would survive? If Pre-Crisis Superman flew at
Ganondorf and punched Ganon in the face without holding an ounce of his
strength back, do you think Ganondorf would survive? If you answered yes to
either of those questions, stop reading and educate yourself on what a
no-limits fallacy is.
Inspite
of how idiotic of a no-limits fallacy the "Ganondorf can only be killed by
------" claim is, I can admit that there might be some truth to statement
that only 'super-effective' weapons like the Master Sword can kill Ganondorf...
In the context of the Zelda universe! But when you throw other fictions into
the mix it's a completely different ballgame, as there are hundreds, if not thousands of characters who absolutely wreck him stat-wise, and have no Master Sword stand-in to speak of.
Hell,
even in the context of the Zelda universe Ganondorf has been harmed by the
Megaton Hammer and the Biggoron's sword (in his beast form no less). If he can
be stunned and beaten to an inch of his life with said weapons, I'm not sure why so many
people think other traditional attacks couldn't kill him as well. Yes, I know
he's only ever been outright killed by the Master Sword and Silver Arrows, but
to quote my dear Swan, "That's like saying Tupac can only be killed by
drive-bys".
So,
we know Ganondorf isn't completely invulnerable to traditional weapons and the
analysis pretty clearly establishes that Bowser outclasses him in all physical
stats by a wide margin. Bowser has better strength, durability, and arguably
even speed feats than 'Dorf. Even in terms of experience, Bowser may be a lot
younger than Ganon, but he's pulled a lot more ploys, and conquered a lot more
territory in his time.
So
what does Ganon still have? Would his magical abilities even the odds? Not
really.
Ganondorf's
twilight realm soul hax? Bowser's
Safety Ring reliably nullifies it.
Ganondorf's
Sword of Sages' evil-slaying hax? A
more plausible idea, but Ganondorf has survived being stabbed by it and I have no
doubt Bowser could too, assuming Bowser doesn't just inhaling the sword to
render it moot.
Ganondorf's
possession hax? Bowser
may get possessed by evil entities on a regular basis, but Ganondorf has only
ever used this power on an unconscious Zelda when her physical form had no
spirit inhabiting it. Ganondorf isn't knocking Bowser out, and he sure as hell
isn't removing Bowser's spirit from his body.
This
is ignoring Bowser's own magical hax, mainly victory via petrification and
transmutation, which is a much more reliable and plausible exploit to be used
in this fight. The funny thing about the petrification victory is even if we take the claim that
Ganondorf is completely invulnerable to non-holy/light-based/silver-based
attacks at face value, Bowser could still very easily win via his petrification capabilities
by bypassing that durability and breaking the transmuted stone. Some people have argued Ganondorf could possibly resist being
turned to stone since both Link and Zelda received protection from the Twilight
Realm due to their Triforce pieces. Ignoring the fact that these 3 pieces
clearly have different functions, there's a big problem with the argument.
The
Twilight Realm is essentially soul hax, not transmutation hax. Yes, Link transformed into his wolf form when he entered the Twilight Realm and the Triforce of Courage acted up, but this was essentially a defense against said soul hax. The parameters of how the Twilight Realm works are vague, but I see little reason to believe Ganondorf surviving or using said realm would help him in any substantial way.
When
everything's said and done Bowser surpasses Ganondorf on just about all fronts
that matter for a DEATH BATTLE. Between the King of Evil and the King of
Awesome my money rests on the King of Awesome.
Hero’s Shade
Bowser reks.
It should have been
Ganondorf vs Dracula.
*Flips a table*
….
Which is what I wanted
my verdict to be given my lack of enthusiasm for this match due to two dream matches
now thrown out the window (I’m pretty sure neither opponent will be coming
back), but what can I say, it’s sort of growing on me. Well, that and having
two joke verdicts in a row is a bit much.
...Okay, the real reason
is that Lousy convinced me and Swan to make an actual verdict.
So, the general
consensus, among the f̶i̶l̶t̶h̶y̶ casuals that is, is that Ganondorf would beat
Bowser. I… can’t say I understand why, considering Mario very clearly has an
extensively popular platformer series based around planets, black holes, and
stars and such. Even with no firsthand knowledge of these two games, anyone
with any ounce of sense rattling around in their skull knows that Zelda is
clearly in a medieval fantasy setting and has never been in F***ING SPACE. Has
Link ever punched Ganon into the sun? Didn’t think so. Of course Bowser still
has impressive feats even discounting Galaxy feats, but I mean come on!
Maybe it’s the idea that
Zelda is the more “serious and dark” series and Mario is “silly and for kids”.
Hmm, Toon Link. What even is it? Seriously though, people need to stop
investing so much into this preconceived notion, especially given most cutesy
characters that have appeared in this show have been shown to be able to body
the ever-loving f*ck out of their fair share of “serious” characters, both in
their respective series and in the DEATH BATTLE. A certain pink puffball and
green dinosaur come to mind. If anything, the cutesy kids’ characters are
generally more powerful. Just compare Kung Fu Panda to saaaaaaaayyy… The
Walking Dead.
Okay, bad example maybe,
but you get the point.
Perhaps another reason
is because of Brawl’s story mode, but Ganondorf clearly shot him in the back
with a trophy gun, which doesn’t really say much in terms of combat or skill.
Heck, if anything it’s practically Ganondorf admitting he can’t beat Bowser
otherwise.
And the third, probably
the most likely, is the absurd over-inflation in regards to the stats
of Zelda characters that has been going around. Like Triforce wielders having
godly power or whatever, and using Link’s “planet flip” from Hyrule Warriors.
To quote JonTron: “Nope,
nope, nope, nope, nope SO MUCH nope.”
First things first, while the Triforce of
Courage and Power may give obvious strength boosts to their respective owners,
and while the full Triforce can change entire landscapes (such as in A Link to
the Past when Ganon used it to turn Sacred Realm into Dark World), Zelda is
clearly physically weaker than the other two. So not all pieces are equal, the
powers are unique to each wielder. Not to mention Link canonically needed the
Fierce Deity Mask against Majora, who is capable of destroying Termina, which
is of somewhat comparable size to the overworld in A Link to the Past. Clearly the stat boosts the Triforce wielders gain is not proportionate to the
Triforce itself. That and what the full Triforce does is clearly reality
warping and/or magic, which is an ability, so it does not apply to power or
durability or any other physical statistics.
All other cases of Zelda wankery can be
addressed by the sheer fact that most of it is based on blatant assumptions and
vague as hell statements from Hyrule Historia and such (which is LOADED with
mistakes, by the way, such as having Darunia as the Sage of Spirit when he’s
very explicitly the Sage of Fire in OoT) and not having anything we’ve actually SEEN
THEM DO.
Ever played Ace Attorney? Evidence is
everything, Mister Wright.
Plus, if we looked at Bowser’s feats as loosely
and lenient as some people look Zelda feats, we could very easily get Bowser to
universe level because of Super Mario Galaxy’s ending, but we won’t because we
know better.
But being fair and holding both under the same
amount of scrutiny, Bowser in Bowser’s Inside Story alone outclasses anything
and everything Ganon has done in his own canon games.
Ultraguy
Prepare your anuses for my longest verdict since
Megaman vs Astroboy
To be truthful I think Bowser has a lot of
advantages in this fight. It’s pretty obvious he’s stronger than Ganondorf by
several orders of magnitude even in base form, let alone in a giant or heaven
forbid giant giant form. He’s also clearly taken attacks and explosions several
magnitudes beyond anything Ganondorf has ever produced, again even in base
form, which makes me doubtful that Ganondorf could really harm him with most
traditional attacks. Then of course there’s the fact that he bassically has an
undead form, which would mean Ganondorf might have to put him down twice.
There’s also some pretty obvious differences in arsenal and abilities listed in
our notes. Bowser just has so many more physical abilities, powers, weapons and
armor than Ganondorf has. The only thing I really think is somewhat even for
both of them is their speed stat, as Ganondorf really doesn’t have a lot of
them and Bowser’s generally not that acrobatic in most games. Though honestly
teleportation, and some moves like Whirling Fortress and Bowser’s surprising
nimbleness in games like Mario Dance make this an easy problem for him to get
around.
I’d also say there’s a pretty
obvious gulf between both characters when in comes to fighting experience and
actual accomplishments. Let’s be honest here. Ganondorf may have lived
centuries in most Zelda timelines, but in most of them he spends the majority
of his time sealed away or something of the like. Not to mention anytime he
does take over Hyrule, he also tends to roflstomp most of his verse, and act
unopposed from anybody for years until Link gets involved. In fact Ganondorf’s
only had to really fight one significant threat (again Link) less than a dozens
time in the whole Zelda franchise, and most of his upbringing isn’t detailed or
hinted at in any fashion, so it’s not like we have any idea what he was up to
in his life outside speculation.
In contrast we know Bowser’s
been fighting since he was a toddler, we know he’s foughts Mario in country,
world, and galaxy level conflicts dozens and dozens of time, and we know Bowser
has fought multitudes of powerful and diverse enemies, including Smithy, Count
Bleck, Dimentio, Fawful, Peach, Yoshi, Dark Bowser and other assorted Mario
mooks. I also think the fact that Bowser’s consistently taken over the Mushroom
Kingdom, neighboring kingdoms and once even conquered the entire universe,
while Ganondorf normally can barely even manage a single kingdom says a lot
about their overall competence.
Bowser’s only real disadvantage
is his intelligence, though that won't be a big issue in my opinion. Bowser has
shown himself to be smarter than you would believe in some situations. Not to
mention while Ganondorf is smarter, he tends to apply his smarts by
manipulating people from the background, not outsmarting him mid-battle.
Ganondorf’s also actually pretty honorable during a duel against a worthy
opponent, so I’d doubt he’d try to apply his intellect in an underhanded manner
any way. For example, he’ll actually wait for Link to stand up, before
continuing his fight with him in Twilight Princess,
Finally, the simple argument that
Bowser could turn Ganondorf to stone or blocks. It’s something he can do in
some comics and the cartoon and the plot of the first game was bassically
centered around it.
No all this being said if we were trying to give
Ganondorf the win, the arguments I could see for it would probably be somewhat
along these lines.
1.That Ganondorf can tank a castle exploding on
him without a scratch, allowing him to survive most of Bowser's blows. 2.That
the Sword of Sages would be the perfect weapon for putting Bowser down despite
the strength/durability mismatch, given it's clearly of some sort of light
magic in origin. 3.That the Triforce Pieces used by Link & Zelda have at
the very least somewhat protected them from transformation in the Twilight
Realm and that Ganondorf does transform himself into other forms(ganon) on
occasion. 4.The whole possession thing, because Bowser tends to get possessed a
lot. 5. Finally any literal interpretation of the whole "nothing but the
master sword" whatever stuff.
Needless to say a lot of that requires a lot of
presumptions and benefits of the doubt of Ganondorf's end.
Firstly I'd be willing to bet Bowser's strength
could be calculated to outmatch that whole castle explosion thing at least at
least as a giant..The cannonball throw clac we brought up before was pretty
lowballed for example. You could also measure how big the cannonball was based
on scaling to Bowser's castle, which would basically make it half the size of a
castle. And I’m sure if you scaled that strength up to Bowser’s giant size he’d
be able to outmatch it. Likewise I'm also sure a Giant Giant Bowser would
more than outmatch the destructive capability of such an explosion by a large
margin. Not to mention in either scenario Bowser could produce multiple attacks
on that level in quick succession, rather than a single blast like Midna did.
While some properties of the Sword of Sages
could be guessed at, it's actual abilities aren't outlined in any way. Likewise
if it had evil slaying power equal to say the Master Sword, it would have
killed Ganondorf during his execution despite him having the Triforce like Link
could in his final battle. Not to mention Link himself even with the superior
Master Sword doesn't roflstomp enemies that are easily much weaker than Ganondorf.
How the Triforce pieces worked in regards to
protecting characters from Twilight is pretty unclear. While Zelda didn't
change form in Twilight, Link still did, even if he managed to avoid the
absolute worst of it (becoming a spirit). We didn't really see a whole lot of
how Ganondorf functioned in twilight and having one transformation isn't
exactly on par with being a shapeshifter..
Next Ganondorf has really only possessed one
person before, which was basically a soulless Zelda. Likewise Bowser himself
has generally been weakened or unconscious when initially possessed in any game
(Cackletta for example).
Finally the whole can’t be killed or hurt by
anything but a holy weapons things for Ganondorf, and the Triforce of Power
giving him complete immortality is….. Pretty unexplained and kind of a No
Limits Fallacy.
For one it actually isn’t true that you can’t
hurt Ganondorf without anything but a holy weapon. You can actually beat him
into submission temporarily with the Biggoron's Sword or Megaton Hammer during
the final fight of Ocarina and his own magic has shown to hurt/stun him if you
reflect it at him in various games. Additionally while technically it is
possible to get sacred swords in both the original LOZ and the Oracles games
(the Magic Sword and Master respectively), you can still beat Ganon into an
inch of his life without one in the former and outright kill him without one in
the later. Granted Ganondorf doesn’t have the Triforce in Oracles, but you know
this is all still a big point of contention.
…… Actually I also have to ask after looking
through as much Zelda media that I can. Where is it actually stated the
triforce of power makes Ganondorf invulnerable or truly immortal? I mean, in
the sense that he can’t die no matter what way, not the long living way.
Likewise if the Triforce of Power is what gives Ganondorf his
"immortality" why do you need the Master Sword to counter act that?
The Master Sword's power has to do with striking down evil, not negating the
power of the Triforce. In fact, the Triforce itself can't even distinguish
between good and evil.
I’d also point out that you still need to follow
the whole “shoot Ganon with a silver arrow” smultz in a LTTP, even though the
entire Triforce itself is held in a separate chamber of Ganon’s lair, and isn’t
on his person.
It’s like so many facts regarding all this don’t
actually exists and are just presumptions most fans take for granted.
I’d also note that while non-canon, Ganon pretty
much assaults and forcibly takes the Triforce of Power away from Lana in his
story mode of Hyrule Warriors (as well as forcibly taking Link and Zelda’s),
maybe she didn’t have full control of its power (she has no crest on her hand),
but you know questionable.
….
That being said despite everything Death Battle
has often given the benefit of the doubt to characters with some degree of
healing factors/NLFs and while the Sword of Sages isn’t Master Sword level it
still bypassed Ganondorf’s durability, which is great enough to survive a
castle explosion. Maybe Bowser could inhale it to get around this issue,
but ultimately I could still see DB giving Ganondorf the win based on that.
--------------
Ps. Just for the record way too many people put
too much stock in all this FTL, black hole whatever stuff from the Galaxy
games.
Firstly the whole black hole thing at the end of
galaxy. I gotta be honest multiple characters were caught in that blast and
show up in the ending no worse for wear. Jr, Peach, Mario, Luigi, captain toad
and his support group. Even inanimate objects that were clearly being
destroyed, but got reconstituted during the ending, and showed up untouched on
the mushroom world. I don't think Bowser surviving that had anything to do with
his own durability. Rosalina even implies that all the characters were simply
recreated due to have the “essence of the stars” in them just like everything
else.
I also don't understand why people try to give
Bowser FTL or MFTL speed based him successfully attacking starship Mario or the
comet observatory both Galaxy games. NEITHER attacks ever happened on screen,
not allowing you to really know how either went down. That’s not the kinda high
end feat you want to make assumptions on.
I also think FLT reactions from scaling to Mario
and Peach, simply because they watched to comet observatory fly
away at the end of galaxy 2 is a ridiculous
stretch.
Likewise that blackholes in the final fights of
Mario Party and Galaxy 2, really don’t strike me as realistic ones,
rather than pseudo-hollywood ones.
AkumaTh
Like last time, I didn’t research this match
like the others. But reading over what the others have combined with my own
knowledge, I have to agree with Bowser winning this fight. Funny enough, both
of them are pretty similar if you think of it. Powerful ruler with an army of
monsters under their control. A couple of guys at most is enough to defeat
them. Saying Bowser shouldn’t beat Ganondorf because he loses to a plumber is
like saying Ganon shouldn’t win because he loses to a kid in a tunic. You want
to prove someone wins? Back it up with what they can do.
And from what I’ve seen, Bowser can back it up.
He seems stronger, more durable, and has some powerful magic on his own side.
And I bet Bowser has the strength to hurt and even kill Ganon in pig form or
humanoid form. But if I’m wrong, I’m wrong.
LSwan62
That is all.
No but seriously, despite being the more
serious character, Ganondorf is essentially outclassed in every way that
matters. Strength and power? The Bowse has better feats. Durability? The Bowse
has better feats. Who has the greater variety of weapons and abilities? The
Bowse can do more and just has MORE options. Who is more experienced? Well,
Ganon may have lived far longer, but in a fraction of a fraction of the time,
Bowser has conquered almost the entire universe, instead of struggling multiple
times to conquer a single kingdom. There’s really no comparison. And this is
without any discussion of Galaxy feats (which I will avoid because cancer).
The only thing the Dorf has ever had was his
supposed invulnerability due to the Triforce of Power, which has since proven
to be complete and utter horseshit. Not only can you harm and KILL him without
it, there’s nothing to indicate he was invulnerable to anything else in the
first place. All we got was a vague, hyperbolic quote in Wind Waker that
wouldn’t apply to anything outside the Zelda-verse (something like “the Master
Sword is the only sword in Hyrule that can slay him”). It’s dumb. And stupid.
And dumb.
Even if that were true though, Bowser has at
least three other methods of overcoming that: petrification via Clown Car
headlights, petrification via fusion wand, and being turned into a brick via
however Bowser managed to do that in SMB1. Honestly, if this fight ended with
Dorf being brickified, only for Mario to come in and punch him to pieces like
all the rest, I would be very, VERY happy.
As a side point, I don’t believe there’s enough
evidence to definitively say the Warlock Sword (Sword of Sages) has
evil-slaying properties, or, well, I can agree that’s likely, but I’d be
severely unconvinced if it were used as a key part of the analysis. Not only
does Bowser have far more numerous options to destroy the Dorf, his are more
obvious as well, and that’s not to mention Lousy’s inhale counter. The same
goes for possession. If it were that easy he would have done it to Link. I
could continue, but frankly, Ultra and the guests have done more than enough,
so I’ll leave the details to them. I’m going with Bowser.
Guest Verdicts
ShadMorgen
First of all, I really wanna thank you guys for
inviting me to give a guest verdict, I was honestly shocked since I was
debating less against the match-up, and more directly against common mistakes
Ganondorf receives. This guest verdict of mine will most likely act as a
summary of most of my arguments I have stated on the forums already. Heeeere we
go...
The elephant in the room...or is that the Pig in
the room? Ganondorf’s supposed “immortality” and inability to be put down by
anything other than the Master Sword. This is reason people usually dread
having the ‘Dorf in a Death Battle, or most vs battles. As was found out, the
assumption itself seems to have stemmed from something said in Wind Waker:
“It is none other than the Master Sword… The blade of evil’s bane. It is the
only sword that can banish Ganon from the world above!” - King of Red Lions. Note
how it specifies it’s the only “sword” that can put him down. Why? That’s
because the Master Sword is imbued with the three Sacred Flames, one of which,
Din’s Sacred Flame gave it the power to repel evil. THIS is why the
Master Sword is considered the trump card against Ganondorf, an overwhelmingly
evil being. It’s essentially Super Effective against the ‘Dorf, which is why it
is always sought to put him down. Just because it is the only weapon in the
Zeldaverse which is capable of putting him down for good doesn’t mean that
absolutely nothing else can, that’s a standard NLF. Not to mention, Ganon
himself has been killed by two other weapons. In ALttP, he was put down by
Silver Arrows, and in the very first game he was killed by Link, despite the
Master Sword not even BEING in that game. So to summarise, it is an
unreasonable assumption to say that Ganondorf can only be killed by the Master
Sword. Any attack strong enough should be able to kill him.
The next one, Ganondorf’s “special” scaling
people love to throw out for him. There are two main ones here I’ll address.
The first would be people assuming that Ganondorf scales to Majora, since he
“should” be more powerful, simply by assuming that the ToP gives him enough of
a stat boost, despite there being nothing else to suggest this. Majora pulled
the moon down to wipe all of Termina out for shits and giggles, Ganondorf
simply has nothing even remotely comparable to this, and has always sought to
acquire the full Triforce to accomplish his goals. It’s an unreasonable
assumption to say Ganondorf is more powerful, with nothing to back this up.
The second scaling people like to give
Ganondorf… Demise. This one honestly cracks me up to be honest. People like to
say that Ganondorf scales to Demise, because he is the reincarnation of
Demise’s hatred, as revealed through Demise’s curse in the finale of Skyward
Sword. While this is ridiculous, the funny part is the only reason that they do
it is because of a HH statement, an incredibly vague and open to interpretation
one at that. The direct quote itself is: “It is said Demise, the most evil
of all evil, who commands enough power to destroy the world…”. First of
all, this is a blatant case of hyperbole. Demise has never displayed
this level of power. Second, it’s vague as shit. “Destroy the world” could mean
anything from somewhat upsetting the bloody stock market to actually planet
busting. Personally I think it was referring to his army of the Demon Tribe,
who he used to try and take over. Given that he never shows this level of
power? It’s hyperbole breh. As for why Ganondorf doesn’t scale to him?
Well...he doesn’t actually have anything to do with him really. Aside from
Demise being the reason that Ganondorf exists, there isn’t a reason he should
scale to him. He’s like... His hate daddy. (I love yet hate how that sounds)
There is one of Ganondorf’s supposed “win
conditions” brought up a few times around the place. His “possession” ability
he displayed in Twilight Princess, when he seemingly possessed Zelda. I’m going
to explain exactly why this won’t work. Zelda was unconscious. She had
absolutely no way of fighting it. How unconscious? She didn’t even have her
soul/spirit at the time. Earlier in the game, she passed it, along with her ToW
to Midna. This is confirmed in the Hyrule Historia: "Once Princess
Zelda's spirit, which remained inside Midna, was returned to her body, she
defended Link using the Light Arrows." (Hyrule Historia (Dark Horse
Books), pg. 117) . Ganondorf possessed a lifeless, soulless body. There is
quite literally, no reason to suggest this would work on Bowser.
That’s about all I can really comment on in this
verdict to be honest. Like I said, I’ve been concentrating solely on addressing
all the nonsense Ganondorf has been getting, in the hopes of people being able
to get a better understanding of LoZ character’s stats. Shoulda been Dracula...
curse the popular requests!
Homestucklover
WOW, I ACTUALLY GET TO BE A GUEST ON ONE OF
THESE GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH
*Explodes*
Anyway, before I start going into my actual
verdict, I want to go into something that has always bothered me about how
Mario is treated in vs debates, having to do with canon. Miyamoto has made a
statement that gives a pretty good idea regarding Mario canon here.
Miyamoto calls the Mario cast a “troupe of
actors” and outright compares the canon to Popeye of all things. You know what
I get out of this? He’s telling people there essentially is no such thing as
Mario canon. Popeye is a cartoon series where Popeye can be living in more
modern times, and in the next episode, he’s fighting Sinbad the Sailor, or in
another episode he’s in Ancient Greece. There is no continuity and people need
to stop arguing it just to restrict Mario characters.
You also can’t restrict things like Party purely
for being nonsensical. That’s just silly. Fiction itself is mostly made up of
nonsensical things. An 8 inch puffball cracking a planet is nonsensical, but it
still happens.
That being said here, Bowser wins with minimal
effort. His feats from Party and Galaxy put him at absurdly high levels that
Ganon has never reached without obtaining the full triforce, which is anything
but standard equipment. In Mario Party 9 in an essential boss minigame in the
story, Bowser resists the forces of a black hole clearly sucking in planets,
and when he’s finally defeated, he falls right in it and survives as shown here. This means taking Party Feats into account, Bowser has a planet
level durability feat and a possibly FTL feat as well.
That’s not the end of his feats though. Thanks to Mario and Luigi giving Bowser enough adrenaline, which
realistically he would be able to do normally like any other living being, if
it weren’t for the fact he didn’t really see the cannonball coming, he was able
to lift and chuck a cannonball of comparable size to a castle. This makes many
of Ganon’s feats such as when he tanked the collapse of Hyrule Castle seem very
weak by comparison, especially considering Bowser has also tanked the collapse of a castle. Bowser also lifted Peach’s Castle plus his own attachments to it in Paper Mario. You know Bowser himself did this likely with magic since he
explicitly says that he himself lifted her castle into the sky. This isn’t thefirst time he does something like this either.
Ganon’s best destruction feat is the wreckage of
Greatfish Isle. This is impressive, but Bowser’s castle lifting feats using his
magic have gained similar results. Also, in NO WAY does Ganon scale to Demise, just because he’s the
reason for his existence. You also can’t scale him to Majora since the two have
never been associated with each other AT ALL in neither the lore or actual
canon storylines.
So that clears my views on stats, but what about
hax? Well, Ganon has BFR, which he used on Phantom Ganon, and possession, which
he could only use on a KOd Zelda. Bowser, on the other hand, has transmutation,
which he’s used in the original Super Mario Bros to turn Toads into brick, and
has used it in the Mario comics, which he used to turn Toads into stone. He
also has used BFR in Super Mario 64, when he sealed Peach in the stain window
of the castle. He also has spatial hax as shown in moments like Super Mario 64
and the infinite staircase. So overall here, I think Bowser should have an edge
in hax, due to one of Ganon’s hax only being useful when a person is in a
vulnerable state and Bowser having more hax options.
So overall, I just don’t see a way for Ganon to
win, unless his NLF about holy weapons is abused, or Zelda fallacies are
brought into play.
By the end of this fight, Bowser is gonna have a pork roast dinner.
Tonathan100 here, and I come to make some refutations of the points made here.
ReplyDelete"The next one, Ganondorf’s “special” scaling people love to throw out for him. There are two main ones here I’ll address. The first would be people assuming that Ganondorf scales to Majora, since he “should” be more powerful, simply by assuming that the ToP gives him enough of a stat boost, despite there being nothing else to suggest this. Majora pulled the moon down to wipe all of Termina out for shits and giggles, Ganondorf simply has nothing even remotely comparable to this, and has always sought to acquire the full Triforce to accomplish his goals. It’s an unreasonable assumption to say Ganondorf is more powerful, with nothing to back this up"
Apparently, two glorified Voodoo Masks (one of them being formed from the mere memories of the people of Termina) are more powerful than a third of a cosmic artifact that:
1. Passively holds the world together, as shown in A Link Between Worlds
2. Can create itself without draining itself, as shown in A Link Between Worlds
3. Was created by the Golden Goddesses (source: http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=20410)
Not to mention that Ganondorf warranted enough of a threat that the Goddesses chose to flood Hyrule away while they did nothing when Majora was running around.
Hyrule in and of itself is very large, so none of the calculations based on it being a continent is invalidated, meaning that Ganon is far more than Island Level.
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=21698
Now is the time to list feats of Ganondorf or feats that scale to Ganondorf.
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=18755
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=18921
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=18880
City Level Feats:
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=20384
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=20454
Island Level:
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=20387
Country Level:
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=21710
Continent Level:
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=20379
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=20426
Speed Feats:
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=21586
Finally, this:
http://www.narutoforums.com/showpost.php?p=55407793&postcount=324
From Lord Xcano from VS. Battles Wiki:
"About the Triforce having the power of the Goddesses
'In all of his fury and might, he was blind to any danger, and thus was he exposed, subdued, and brought to justice. Yet... By some divine prank, he, too, had been blessed with the chosen power of the gods. His abiding hatred and lust for power turned to purest malice...'"
This means that the Full Triforce has the power of the Golden Goddesses, and since we have no reason to believe that each Triforce Piece gains a multiplicative or exponential boost in power when combined with each other, the Triforce Pieces remain the 2nd most powerful artifacts in Legend of Zelda lore, and scale to any other artifacts unless it is implied that those other artifacts are more powerful than the Triforce.
(Ultra) this is filled with way to much speculation and personal opinion on how things in the zelda verse should work, rather than facts.
DeleteA lot of those links also rely on assumptions, scaling from sometimes bizare places, basing things off of events or powers you don't actually see outright in story,ect.
Also you're extrapolating WAY to much from that one quote. There's literally nothing in that line that implies any of what that persona is saying.
Like literally the game barely say anything about Majora's or the fierce diety mask's origins(with one brief developer head-cannon being the closest you get to the second).
DeleteAnd how the triforce pieces work and what powers they give individually is almost never elaborated on. It's literally ALMOST ALL speculation. Heck even when Ganondorf HAD THE ENTIRE TRIFORCE at his disposal in a link to the past he wasn't omnipotent and still got defeated.
Finally(and I'm sure you know this). Even if we were THAT lenient on all this stuff with Gdorf, if we were in turn as lenient with everything with Bowser it would be even more of a stomp.
"(Ultra) this is filled with way to much speculation and personal opinion on how things in the zelda verse should work, rather than facts."
Delete>Speculation
>Personal opinion
>When it should be basic logic that pieces of an artifact that contains the power of Large Planet Level+ gods should scale to a Multi-Continent Level+ being
>Forgets that most of VS. debating is based on making assumptions, some more logical/rational/reasonable than others
>Forgets that most of VS. debating is based on making logical/rational/reasonable theories
But of course, even though the Triforce Pieces are created by the three absolute most powerful beings in the setting, they can't scale to Majora or the Fierce Deity, because "muh the Triforce Pieces are featless", even though the entire point of powerscaling is so that otherwise featless characters can be useable in VS. debates. You don't justify "powerscaling abuse" with "hurr durr the character is otherwise featless", you justify it by providing evidence that such scaling is contradictory to the narrative or lore. And surprise fucking surprise, scaling the Triforce Pieces to Majora is not contradictory to the lore. At all.
For fuck's sake, the entire point of powerscaling is ASSUMING or SPECULATING that one character is comparable or superior to another based on how they are shown, stated, or implied to compare in the story or lore.
"A lot of those links also rely on assumptions"
>"Hurr durr if something isn't spoonfed to me, it must not be happening no matter how much sense it makes"
"scaling from sometimes bizare places"
Prove this.
"basing things off of events or powers you don't actually see outright in story,ect."
Literally every calculation is from an event that happens in the story. WTF are you talking about?
"Also you're extrapolating WAY to much from that one quote. There's literally nothing in that line that implies any of what that persona is saying."
Are you serious?:
"chosen power of the gods"
"Like literally the game barely say anything about Majora's or the fierce diety mask's origins(with one brief developer head-cannon being the closest you get to the second)."
>Secondary canon
>Uncontradicted seconday canon
>Now "headcanon" because "hurr durr I don't like it, so it doesn't count"
"And how the triforce pieces work and what powers they give individually is almost never elaborated on. It's literally ALMOST ALL speculation."
>Forgets that most of VS. debating is based on making assumptions, some more logical/rational/reasonable than others
>Forgets that most of VS. debating is based on making logical/rational/reasonable theories
Not to mention that:
1. We have no reason to believe that the Triforce Pieces gain a multiplicative or exponential boost in power when they are brought together.
2. We have EVERY REASON to believe that the Triforce Pieces are more powerful than Majora and the Fierce Deity Mask
"Heck even when Ganondorf HAD THE ENTIRE TRIFORCE at his disposal in a link to the past he wasn't omnipotent and still got defeated."
Of course while the Triforce is not omnipotent, Link beating a Full Triforce empowered being is complete PIS.
Ok you're being a complete dick no offense.
Deleteand honestly I can't say I care at this point given the episode is already out.
Bowser beats Ganondorf and your points are wrong as hell
DeleteIt’s debatable
DeleteI'm also LMAO at ultraguy not even bothering to provide evidence for his Super Mario Galaxy downplay.
ReplyDelete(Ultra) I kinda did actually. I pointed out you don't actually see Bowser's attacks on starship mario/the comet observatory and the fact the ending of Galaxy is vague as hell and can be interpreted several different ways. I also pointed out giving MFL reactions based on just watching the comet observatory fly off at the end of galaxy is honestly a bit ridicules(I can think of plenty of movies or tv shows that have characters watching superheroes, ships and the like flying off into the sunset while clearly not being on the same level as them in a combat or travel speed sense.
DeleteLikewise I was somewhat brief on my thoughts there given it wasn't the main focus of the verdict, and while I said it was questionable I didn't totally discard it.
I'm just pointing out with something that debatable and without hard on screen evidence, you shouldn't count on it to come up in the match the way you expect.
"I kinda did actually. I pointed out you don't actually see Bowser's attacks on starship mario/the comet observatory and the fact the ending of Galaxy is vague as hell and can be interpreted several different ways. I also pointed out giving MFL reactions based on just watching the comet observatory fly off at the end of galaxy is honestly a bit ridicules(I can think of plenty of movies or tv shows that have characters watching superheroes, ships and the like flying off into the sunset while clearly not being on the same level as them in a combat or travel speed sense."
Delete>Not one link to evidence to prove your points
Just stop making a fool of yourself, ultraguy.
... How am I supposed to link to an event not happening?
Deleteand why are you being so aggressive and insulting.
Another off-screen feat was used in the blog itself. This is, of course, the destruction of the island. However, this is a plot device and you clearly see it's gone just like you see the two ships in less-than-stellar condition.
DeleteAlso, the Prima guide states he wasn't protected and was shaken by the fact he narrowly escaped death so... Yeah. This is shown because he's seen rubbing his head, clearly taken aback by an event that just transpired.
Either way, he roflstomps so, this is all pretty moot.
I'm surprised you guys never mentioned that Wind Waker, Ganondorf not only laughs off a slash from the depowered Master Sword, he outright states that he can only be defeated by weapons with the power to repel evil. "You cannot defeat me with a blade that does not sparkle with the power to repel evil!" That, to me, implies that him being able to be injured by the Biggoron Sword and Megaton Hammer are, as the analysis put it, "arguably simply fabrications of gameplay." Maybe I'm reading too much into it, though.
ReplyDeleteBeing wounded by the Biggoron Sword or Megaton Hammer (or other weapons in Link's arsenal) in OoT are Canon. However you, the player did it, Ganon disarmed Link of the Master Sword, and the only way Link was able to retrieve it was by beating Ganon down with non-Evil-slaying weapons until his fire barrier dissipated. This isn't a fabrication of gameplay, this is the sequence of events as it happened.
DeleteGanon could be hurt by non-magical, non-evil slaying weapons.
In the oracle games, Ganon is canonically killed by a WOODEN SWORD. Nothing has ever stated holy weapons are the ONLY thing that can kill Ganon, just they hurt more.
DeleteWhat if the Biggoron Sword and the Megaton Hammer WERE holy weapons this whole time?
DeleteOk, seriously. Saying that because they can hurt him, he isn't immune to all damage except for holy damage, is stretching it a bit. In Twilight Princess, for instance, even though he was already weakened and injured, the second best sword in the game will just pass through him like smoke. Games tend to downplay the powers of their characters to make them beatable - just look at Bowser. He's able to shrug all of that stuff off, but a fall in the castle kills him? Come on. Let's not use their weakest moments against them. In Twilight Princess, a regular sword is not powerful enough to harm him. It has to be the Master Sword, and even then, it has to fully impale him through the wound he had already received from ANOTHER holy weapon that had fully impaled him (which he pulled out of his chest and proceeded to wreck the house with like a god damn maniac), after he had been shot full of holy arrows from YET ANOTHER holy weapon, the Bow of Light. To be fair, a large part of the problem is that a lot of what Ganondorf can do is never really explicitly provided, but we can use our brains here to work out a little chain. Ganondorf bestows his power onto Zant. Zant takes over the Twilight Realm and Hyrule as well (so technically, you could say Ganondorf has conquered across realms of existence, too). Zant then uses his magic to create beings to beat the Light Spirits, who were second only to the Goddesses themselves. Those same Light Spirits beat the Dark Interlopers, who were powerful enough to require direct divine intervention.
In Wind Waker, the only way the Goddesses could stop Ganondorf was to flood the world with a great ocean and seal the castle itself in time, and even that didn't work.
Long story short, Ganondorf is nowhere near as weak as you have made him out to seem here. The only way you could kill him in Twilight Princess was to whale on him with a weapon whose sole purpose was to beat him, after shooting him with a weapon whose sole purpose was to beat him, after beating him up with a holy animal form that was solely designed to beat him, all of which being concentrated on the injury he had already received from, you guessed it, a weapon that was designed to beat him.
Ganondorf IS weak and the way you can beat him is with any kind of weapon dumbass. There is no holy weapons in the game so no. It wasn’t a weapon designed to beat him.
DeleteHe’s not weak Mariotard (not saying he wins though)
Delete"I'm surprised you guys never mentioned that Wind Waker, Ganondorf not only laughs off a slash from the depowered Master Sword, he outright states that he can only be defeated by weapons with the power to repel evil. "You cannot defeat me with a blade that does not sparkle with the power to repel evil!" That, to me, implies that him being able to be injured by the Biggoron Sword and Megaton Hammer are, as the analysis put it, "arguably simply fabrications of gameplay." Maybe I'm reading too much into it, though."
ReplyDeleteHis claim that he can only be defeated by evil-repelling weaponry is a complete No Limits Fallacy.
He tanks a slash from the Master Sword in Wind Waker and survives being impaled by the Sages' Sword in Twilight Princess due to the Triforce of Power. The only times he has been injured by non-holy weapons is during gameplay.
DeleteUhhh...... Time to lay the ultimate smack down.
Delete"He tanks a slash from the Master Sword in Wind Waker and survives being impaled by the Sages' Sword in Twilight Princess due to the Triforce of Power."
Plenty of characters in fiction without a BS "can only be killed by blah-blah" NLF have suried stuff like that. Nothing special.
"The only times he has been injured by non-holy weapons is during gameplay."
Uhh, go home and play the Oracle games, bud. Canonically, he gets killed by a blippin' WOODEN SWORD. Hell, the Master Sword is just a completely optional upgrade in said games. And in Ocarina of time, it's canon in the story that Link beats Ganondorf near to death (to where fucking BLOOD comes out of his mouth) to hold him back with the Megaton Hammer and stuff.
One thing I want to add...
ReplyDeleteAssuming Wind Waker is canon, Ganon beat the Triforce of Courage out of Link just before the final boss. Admittedly, it was a cutscene, but it does heavily imply that if a Triforce part user takes enough damage, the Triforce part might jump to a new wielder. So if Bowser is able to inflict enough damage to Ganon during the fight, *he* might end up with the Triforce of Power...even if he has to inhale it to absorb it.
A similar thing happened in Hyrule Warriors.
DeleteGood golly Holly... And I thought I knew enough about these two. O.O
ReplyDeleteWell, this is the third time Screwattack completely ignored the research team, Ganondorf won because NLF, apparently
ReplyDeleteSo I guess anyone with an NLF will automatically win now. If not, SA would have to redo Yang vs Tifa, and their new masters won't allow that
Well, this is the third time Screwattack completely ignored the research team, Ganondorf won because NLF, apparently
ReplyDeleteSo I guess anyone with an NLF will automatically win now. If not, SA would have to redo Yang vs Tifa, and their new masters won't allow that
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DeleteAfter seeing the actual episode, I guess it is save to say that Ben Singer is trolling you guys really, really hard. :P
ReplyDeleteAfter seeing the actual episode, I guess it is save to say that Ben Singer is trolling you guys really, really hard. :P
ReplyDeleteBowser got rek't lol
ReplyDeleteMore like Bowser got robbed.
ReplyDeleteUgh... All they had to do was leave the verdict at "Magic and Intellect."
ReplyDeleteIt's not that hard to do. All Ganon does is use a curse at the beginning of the fight, and beat on Bowser so his immune system... Can't keep up with the constant abuse... of...
Excuse me while I go to the TvTropes page.
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ReplyDeleteMost of them were frustrated.
DeleteBut then again everyone on the forums was frustrated.....
But then again a good majority of the Death Battle community was frustrated.....
Needless to say, the episode isn't well received.
Most of them were frustrated.
DeleteBut then again everyone on the forums was frustrated.....
But then again a good majority of the Death Battle community was frustrated.....
Needless to say, the episode isn't well received.
that battle clearly wanked gannon and severely handicap bowser, there reasoning was bullcrap, the whole instant kill spell when infact it summon spell for ghoma, the whole no eye = dead when dry bones completely show there lying along with bowser even showing life by shaking around if wait before bowser jr give him back his flesh, last that whole holyweapon bullshit apparently gannon beats someone like odin or galactus since they have master sword, and a werewolf beat superman since lol he has no silver bullet
ReplyDeletebowser simply got robbed
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